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ISY and scenes
#31
Notice how there is no link type="16" here. I'm guessing you call this in a program.

Not sure about nodeDefID. All of my groups are InsteonDimmer, even those that don't have a dimmable device in them.

-Tom
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#32
(04-16-2021, 08:48 AM)xlurkr Wrote: Notice how there is no link type="16" here.  I'm guessing you call this in a program.

Not sure about nodeDefID.  All of my groups are InsteonDimmer, even those that don't have a dimmable device in them.

-Tom
You're right, That was a program.

Here are two  scenes: I see what you mean about "link type 16"


</group>
<group flag="132" nodeDefId="InsteonDimmer">
<address>3361</address>
<name>Ext Lights</name>
<family>6</family>
<deviceGroup>20</deviceGroup>
<pnode>3361</pnode>
<ELK_ID>B02</ELK_ID>
<members>
<link type="16">49 A8 4E 1</link>
<link type="16">9 7 DF 1</link>
</members>
</group>



</group>
<group flag="132" nodeDefId="InsteonDimmer">
<address>2368</address>
<name>Kitchen Lights</name>
<family>6</family>
<deviceGroup>17</deviceGroup>
<pnode>2368</pnode>
<ELK_ID>A12</ELK_ID>
<members>
<link type="16">49 9C B5 1</link>
<link type="16">9 4 F3 1</link>
</members>
</group>
Thanks
George M
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#33
The reason I created a program was because Wuench said he built that into his driver. Either scene or program would work for me.
Thanks
George M
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#34
I also have scenes with no controller that I call from programs, in addition to scenes with exactly one controller, and scenes with several controllers.

I just want to make sure that Dean understands how the ISY and Insteon work, and how they might differ from other lighting controllers. For example:

Scenes don't have to have a controller, and then they are usually called by a program
Scenes can have multiple controllers
The ISY can't tell you if a scene is "on". You'd have to query all of the devices, since they can have their state changed manually, programmatically, or by activating another scene that they're in

Another thing to consider is that we are using the REST interface to get the node status, whereas software control is normally done by subscribing to the ISY, and then the ISY sends at least some (maybe all?) events to the subscriber, as well as allowing for control.

So I think we should expect a fully-functioning driver to show the instant status and allow for instant control of all devices, whether Insteon or Z-Wave. At a minimum, we'd also expect to be able to activate scenes and both the "then" and "else" parts of all programs. As far as notification of scene activation events and program execution triggered by other events, it gets murkier.

-Tom
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#35
Another thought: UD has been promoting the "nodeserver" concept for a while now. In the beginning, Insteon devices and scenes were nodes. Then Z-Wave devices became nodes, as long as they were connected to the ISY's built-in Z-Wave interface.

Today there are lots of nodeservers you can install on several devices, including their own Polisy. The purpose is to abstract nearly any arbitrary networked/cloud device as more nodes on the ISY (which will eventually become obsolete when the Polisy takes over the Insteon management). I'm holding out hope that the CQC community can continue to add support for these node-exposed devices as they get added to the ISY. Since the # of nodes that end up getting exposed and accessible through the ISY is small, the creation and ongoing support of them might be more manageable than for the same equivalent individual drivers.

-Tom
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#36
But let's get full support for Insteon and Z-Wave devices, scenes, programs, and variables first.

-Tom
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#37
Looks like we will have to use them as they are.
Thanks
George M
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#38
So, if one has link children, and those links are of type 16, that means the parent is controlling the links, or that the links are scene controllers that can control the parent? If it's the later, that's going to be hard to deal with and completely backwards from what most systems would do.

One thing that's wierd is that they have a family type or 0x6, which is Pool and Spa control, which doesn't make much sense.
Dean Roddey
Explorans limites defectum
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#39
Oh, wait, those are not <node> elements, those are <group> elements. So does <group> indicate it's a dimmer? The V2 drivers looks for group elements and considers those scenes, so not sure why it would not show up.

I guess the family is different for groups or something and 6 doesn't actually mean pool/spa. But the family isn't even looked at for group elements anyway.
Dean Roddey
Explorans limites defectum
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#40
I *think* family 6 means it's a group (aka scene).  All of my scenes have that flag, and none of the other nodes do.

I have group flags of 4, 132, and 12.  The last of these is only for the "My Lighting" group, which contains everything.  I'll see if I can figure out what the others mean.

Not sure what you mean by link parents and children.  In a group, link type 16 means that the link is a controller for the scene.  That means that the associated node (device) will invoke the scene when it is manually turned on or off.  Since controllers are responders, any controller will change state if the scene is invoked by another controller, or programmatically.  Is that what you wanted to know?  CQC will be informed automatically, since that controller's state will have changed.

You can have zero to many controllers for any scene.  There is no separate class of "scene controller" devices in Insteon.  Almost anything that can change state (switch, keypad button, sensor, etc.) can be a controller.  Scenes are useful because they cut down on the # of messages sent (each device responds to a single "turn on your scene # xxx" message) and because each device responds at the same time, so no "popcorn" effect.  It's also the fastest way to get a response to happen.  In many cases, it makes more sense to define a scene with no controllers, and have the ISY's logic invoke the scene if an event happens.  That way, you still get the economy of messaging and no popcorn, but don't have to have the ISY rewrite a lot of links when the controllers change (like when you add a new remote, for example, or delete a broken one), and you can also have the scene depend on a complex set of conditions rather than a single controller changing state.  But it's not quite as fast, because you have to wait for the ISY to execute the logic.  And if the ISY is down, nothing happens.  That's why the most common use cases for scenes WITH controllers are multiway switches and control/status of other devices with KPL buttons.  They must work even if the ISY is toast.

So what I'd like to see is for CQC to be aware of what scenes exist, and allow me to turn a scene on or off.  That's far more important than anything else.  So, write only is OK.  It might be useful to know that a scene has been invoked by the ISY, but if it's by a controller, I can just monitor that device in CQC.  I'm not sure if there's a use case for knowing that a scene has been invoked programmatically by the ISY.  One reason I say that is that even the ISY can't guarantee that the invocation of a scene means that the devices states are determined.  Anyone can make manual or programmatic changes to any device at any time, thereby turning a scene "partly off".

Also, I'd like to be able to invoke the "then" and "else" parts of ISY programs.  Again, write only is OK.  Like many, I like to write the logic at the lowest possible hardware level to increase reliability.  If CQC is down, my most complex multidevice logic won't operate, but anything that's purely Insteon, no matter how complex, it will still work if the logic executes on the ISY.  But I want to leverage those programs in CQC logic, too.  And as for scenes, I can't think of a reason that I need to know that an ISY program's "then" or "else" branch has been invoked by the ISY.  Nice maybe, but not necessary.

I'm happy to contribute in any way I can to get more robust support for the ISY in CQC.  Just ask.

-Tom
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