Starting security from scratch... [Archive]

beelzerob

10-24-2006, 05:56 PM

Home security has become a bigger concern for me lately, and so I'm starting to really evaluate my options.

If I had been just a tad more paranoid when we were having the house built, I could have opted for some pre-installed wiring for security. Sadly, I was still innocent, and didn't get it.

Soooo, where do I even begin?

1) I currently have NO wiring in place for any kind of security system.
2) As a start, I would like to be able to monitor the front door, two sliding doors, the garage sidedoor, and the garage main doors. I would also like at least 2 interior motion detectors.
3) Wireless really does not appeal to me because of reliability, and having to replace tons of little batteries all year.
4) Most of our ceilings are vaulted, so access to some parts of the house via the "attic" is real iffy. I'd be willing to pay someone to get up in there.
5) No basement.
6) I'd prefer something I can integrate with my home automation and CQC, of course.

Isn't the most economical route to just go with a big-name security service like ADT? Most of them seem to offer the hardware/install for free, and then you just have the monthly fee. So far, most home-automation related things have been cheaper if I do it myself, but is that true in this case too?

Is hard-wired REALLY a better idea than wireless?

Can't your whole system be easily bypassed by them just shutting off your power at the outside box? I looked at mine...there's a place where I can put a padlock so they can't get in the box, but if they brought a lock cutter....

Thanks for any advice you can give.

IVB

10-24-2006, 06:03 PM

The big question is how many sensors and whether you can physically do it yourself.

I started down this route b/c we only had 2 motion sensors and a front/back door sensor. Wife wanted more. ADT wanted $150/motion detector, $100/window to run stuff for me. Given that I could buy wired motion sensors for $25/each, and wired window sensors for $2.50/each, i quickly realized that I could flood the house with sensors and integrate smoke detectors etc, and still pay $10/month.

ADT will charge you $28->$35/month, AND charge you for all those sensor runs.

Also, with the Elk, it's got a battery backup built in that'll probably give you ~24 hours of protection for that very purpose.

You could always pay an electrician or an installer to do the runs, but it's going to run you $75/hour or so.

Sparks

10-24-2006, 06:04 PM

Can't your whole system be easily bypassed by them just shutting off your power at the outside box? I looked at mine...there's a place where I can put a padlock so they can't get in the box, but if they brought a lock cutter....

Thanks for any advice you can give.
All alarms have a small battery backup. I have mine on a UPS that will keep it running for several hours. And you can also cut the phone line at the house, as most alarms are tied to the hard wired phone system. That's one reason I had all my lines (cable and phone) come into the house underground. I have a fake box outside with wires that looks like where the phone line comes from the street into the house. Of course you can bypass that by going out to the box on the street and cutting the wires (all of the electrical/phone/cable wires are underground on our street). Your not going to keep a pro out.

I installed a Caddx NX-8E because I just wanted an alarm system. I looked at the ELK but didn't need the additional functionality.

And I agree with IVB. Even if you get one of those deals where the alarm is almost free to get it installed (I had that at my old house from ADT), the montly charge is going to eventially get you. I also pay $10/month and can't see why you should pay more.

zaccari

10-24-2006, 06:31 PM

As others have said, between house power, UPS and the battery in just about every panel, you don't have to worry about power.

Second, most wireless now has so much redundancy in it, that you have little to worry about there.

Next, your concern about phone lines being cut have several solutions. You can add a cellular modem to some panels as a backup method. There's also radio transmitters that allow connection to neighboring phone lines that aren't likely to be cut.

As for the automation subject, the Elk M1 seems to be the panel that is popular around here. The HAI Omni also has automation capabilities. My choice was the Elk M1 and when all the pieces come in, we'll see how everything comes together. I intend to DIY the thing to replace the system I put in when I bought the house. Security is not my primary concern. I'm more interested in fire and CO. If this interests you, the Elk website (http://www.elkproducts.com/products/m1/elk-m1.htm) has a list of sources for DIY installers.

As to central monitoring, it is my intention to use SMS for self notification rather than central monitoring. I have 2 internet connections and as I said earlier, security isn't my primary concern. I'm not even sure this alarm will have an external bell.

Good luck!

Sparks

10-24-2006, 06:56 PM

I would agree the Elk is a very popular option. However, I decided that all I wanted was a security system and didn't want to pay the difference in price for a combo system. The ELK has security and automation features whereas the Caddx NX-8E is strickly a security panel. The HAI is also a combo security/automation system. Also, the ELK I believe is around $400+ and the NX-8E is $100. Even the NX-8E is an overkill for most home security. It's really designed for small commercial installs. It has 8 partitions and can be expanded to 192 zones. And there is a CQC device driver for the NX-8E.

Steve

10-24-2006, 07:36 PM

Hardwire is always the preferred option if possible. Most pros can do the wiring as long as the attic is at least accesible. You'd be surprised where they can get wire to.

If going the wireless route, something like the Caddx wireless is at least supervised and the batteries 'should' last 3-5 years.

You could always also do a hybrid system and hardwire the critical entry points and uses wireless in other locations.

zaccari

10-24-2006, 07:49 PM

Sparks

10-24-2006, 08:00 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention supervised sensors. They keep the sensors from going south without you knowing it.

As for the NX-8E, can you point me to information on the driver? I'm not married to the Elk yet. If the interface allows me to do the things I'm trying to do, I can still change my mind :-)
jscheller wrote the driver. Look at this thread for more info
http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1961&highlight=nx-8e+driver

robertmee

10-25-2006, 03:20 AM

Another plug for the Caddx-Nx8(e). I love this panel and if you don't need the additional functionality of an Elk, it is the only way to go. I use both wired and wireless and as mentioned, wireless is monitored and you get a low battery alert. I've had mine installed for 5 years and have only had to change one battery. I use the micro switches which use the watch style battery instead of AAs. I am using Jscheller's driver and it works as advertised. Because of it, I'm now using the alarm panel for more than an alarm system. I'm putting motion detectors in most rooms so that I can read status and do some lighting control.

As for the other points, mine has a battery backup so no issues with cutting the power. I also have 'fake' phone line entry into the home. I pay a little more, $18/month for monitored service but we've been extremely happy with the response. The couple of times the wife burned dinner, the firetruck was at the front door in less than 5 minutes.

If you don't want to do the work yourself, you can hire an independent alarm contractor to install it for you without being married to a 3 year contract. That's what I did. We were in the process of moving and I travel alot, so I didn't have time to install it myself for the wife, so for a small fee, I had an independent install it and even do the initial programming for me.

noshali

10-25-2006, 08:23 AM

Elk...love it....love it.

I had an old GE system installed by ADT. It came with wireless sensors. I bought the ELK and the zone expander and now those sensors work with ELK. I also did not have any wiring and my basement is finished (drywall ceilings). ELK supports GE wireless stuff and have been very ahpp with it. As for which one is better. I don't know the difference. I changed batteries (AA) last month (not that I needed to) It had been 3+ years and I had extra batteries lying around.

Also ELK is great at incorporating other technologies like lighting systems and thermostats.

Let me know if you have more questions.

regards,

jscheller

10-25-2006, 09:43 AM

A few quick observations...

I'm obviously using the Caddx panel and have no complaints. The panel supports wired, wireless sensors, plus cellular backup communications. Hardware is relatively cheap, setup's a little bit of a chore, but there's lots of friendly heads around.

My monitoring is via http://www.alarmrelay.com/ and is $9/mo. Works well enough and they support the Caddx panels. Hooking up to them was a no brainer. I got the panel up and running, then just called them and they connected to the panel via phone and did everything remotely to set it up for monitoring. Took 20 minutes.

I can make a few observations on the wired versus wireless setups, with a perspective knowing some of the construction practices in Arizona... I had a Honeywell wireless system that was retrofit installed at the previous house. The setup was installed in 1996, so it was a little older technology. It seemed like I was constantly replacing the batteries and the sensors were physically much larger because they needed to hide the batteries and presumably more electronics. I haven't looked into current wireless sensors, but I'd personally try to hardwire whatever you can. That older wireless setup drove me batty.

Retrofit wire work is hard. What you may think is reasonable access above vaulted ceiling spaces may only be accessible by trained squirrel or other non-traditional means. In the vaulted ceiling in my old house (1989 track home construction), I was going to try to pull some wire in the ceiling. I pulled a vent down and stuck my head up there. The truss space was probably 36" high at the deepest point, but by the time you factored in the trusses themselves, insulation, ducting, nails projecting from the roofing install and other hazards there wasn't clear access to anything. Invariably, as you get near the exterior walls (which is where most of your alarm wire probably needs to go), the access narrows down to nothing. Even if I was 50 pounds thinner, there wasn't a prayer I was getting up there to get a wire across the house and I'd have been picking fiberglass out of my corneas for weeks afterwards. I went around the house on the outside of the eave. Had me yearning for a rat/spider/scorpion infested crawlspace, but as you probably know slab-on-grade is the standard foundation construction here.

Even if you get into the walls, the stud bays aren't usually clear. If they're not packed full of insulation, then code will require firestopping blocks in any wall of reasonable height. You can get there, but just be prepared to do some drywall patches because you'll need a lot more holes then you think.

Don't be dissuaded, but don't think it's a weekend project either... If you can get a low voltage contractor who'll pull the wire for you without wanting to tie you into a 3 year, $40/mo monitoring contract, hiring it out could be the way to go unless you really love fiberglass... :-)

beelzerob

10-25-2006, 09:56 AM

Wow, great info, guys.

I'm pleased with the idea that I can pay someone to run the wire if I want. It kills me that less than 2 years ago, I was looking THROUGH the walls and could have run all kinds of wire then (theorhetically....the builder wouldn't have allowed it....jerks). Still, that's a good idea.

Companies like ADT and the like probably wouldn't install stuff for you if you don't sign a contract with 'em, right? All their stuff is wireless anyway, so that wouldn't gain me much.

So those of you with wireless sensors...you're telling me that you go something close to 3 years without having to change the batteries?? What kind of sensors for that? door, window, motion?

Are there other good security/HA type of boards like the Elk that DON'T have a CQC driver written for them? What I mean is, don't hold back a recommendation just because it doesn't have a driver.....I'd certainly be willing to take on that task.

I kinda like the hybrid idea. Wire the most important places, doors.

Ya, jscheller, I agree. I went up in the "attic" once, right above the master bedroom closet, to run a wire down into the coaxbox in there. "Stupid" defines me that day, as I believe I had short sleeves, and no mask. I was coughing up blown insulation by the end of the day. Ick. It's definitely not something I'D want to do again, but you're right, there ain't a lot of space up there. I'm not sure someone could do it, no matter how much I paid 'em.

beelzerob

10-25-2006, 09:59 AM

j, your current situation then....was it pre-wired?

jscheller

10-25-2006, 10:08 AM

In my current house, everything is hardwired. I contracted out the prewire, then installed the panel and sensors myself after we moved in. I was halfway through the network and video prewire, and realized I didn't have time or inclination to take on another 100 security drops that didn't go places I already had on my list.

I was able to hire some low voltage guys at $15/drop with me providing the wire, but this was when all the walls were open. I had free run here during construction because I was an owner/builder on the house, so I didn't have a contractor or builder in the middle of things. I know realistically I couldn't have done anything like this if the situation were different and I didn't have access to the house during construction.

At one point when I was desperate, I did get ADT to come out and quote the system, and the rates were similar to what IVB mentioned above. The install bill came back at something like $9,000 with a $70/month monitoring fee... For some reason, the monitoring contract went up with the number of sensors, which didn't make any sense. I think the "free alarm" with contract deal is for two wireless sensors, and it just goes up from there... Smelled crooked to me.

robertmee

10-25-2006, 11:48 AM

So those of you with wireless sensors...you're telling me that you go something close to 3 years without having to change the batteries?? What kind of sensors for that? door, window, motion?

For wireless, I'm mostly using these:

http://www.homesecuritystore.com/ezStore123/DTProductZoom.asp?productID=752

Not from that store (I usually buy from worthington, a bit cheaper).

They have the small lithium watch style batteries, and in 5 years I've only replaced one. I have them installed on about 8 windows that I don't have hardwired contacts on. You can use them on doors or windows. They come with the battery as that's probably the most expensive part of the thing. I can't remember what replacement batteries cost, but it's more than a AA for sure.

I just bought some wireless motions so I don't have a history of those as far as battery life. The wireless ones are less critical for me as they're going in upstairs bedrooms, more for automation than security. All my critical motions for security are hardwired. The wireless motion detectors do take two AAs, so I expect their battery life to be shorter.

One thing to factor in, in your wiring installation costs, is the cost of traditional wired sensors vs wireless. As you see, one wireless sensor is around $30. A wired one probably costs $5. I've seen them on ebay in a pack of 10 for $20. So, the cost difference between wired and wireless may not be as great as you think.

beelzerob

10-25-2006, 12:22 PM

Hmmm....ok.

If I try to get an estimate for the wiring work, what kind of wiring is it? Simple 2 wire? Cat5?

robertmee

10-25-2006, 12:37 PM

Hmmm....ok.

If I try to get an estimate for the wiring work, what kind of wiring is it? Simple 2 wire? Cat5?

Depends....In the simplest form, a contact switch can take 2 wires as all the alarm panel is looking for is a open circuit across two terminals. However, many use 4 wires as there is a separate anti-tamper circuit (removing the cover). PIRs can use 4 or 6 wires since in addition to the contact/tamper, they need power.

So, the easiest/safest thing to do is just run 6 conductor everywhere. However, what I would probably do is get a layout of your home, mark it up where you want sensors and what type of sensors, where you want the horn(s), where you might want glass break detectors, etc. You can go simple with a PIR covering a bank of windows, or more costly of putting a sensor on each window in a bank. You can wire each window individually as a different zone, or wire them in series as one zone. All these things you should talk over with a good alarm contractor.

IVB

10-25-2006, 12:57 PM

smoke detectors need fire-retardant wire in most jurisdiction.

Also, I opted to buy 18g wire when my 22g ran out, and christ was it hard to mount that stuff in my motion detectors. Just too thick.

jscheller

10-25-2006, 03:15 PM

At least where I'm at, the builder is required to install smoke detectors that are interlocked with each other. These are usually separate from the alarm setup; you can tie your alarm into them with a relay (which is questionable from a code standpoint, but works), or more frequently alarm contractors will install a parallel set of smoke detectors (heck, why not... more money, right?). Usually the electrician installs the builder smokes because they're on 120v and nobody likes to mess with them.

AFAIK, only the builder smokes are covered under code, and I think you can run four conductor alarm cable to the alarm smokes if you add them. Fire rated wire isn't a bad upgrade, but could be overly paranoid if you're running a second set of smokes just for the alarm system. If you've got builder smokes already, your time may be better spent figuring out how to jump the relay into the alarm circuit.

I ran four conductor alarm wire for everything except the door and window contacts. I didn't install any motions with tampers. 18G wire is definitely better for longer runs; motions and glass break sensors draw power over these wires and the thicker gauge helps a bit.

jscheller

10-25-2006, 03:24 PM

You can go simple with a PIR covering a bank of windows...

Just as a recommendation, you should avoid pointing PIR dectors directly at the windows, especially if they get a lot of sun. PIR is short for "passive infrared" and you actually pass a lot of infrared radiation through even high efficiency glass. This makes a motion detector work a lot harder to try to detect something moving against the glass, and also contributes to false alarms. Newer motions tend to have anti-falsing technology that requires rapid changes in the infrared band but you're hampering things by pointing the detectors at the glass.

Wherever you can, aim the detectors back towards the interior of the house. This will have the effect of both improving the effective sensitivity of the detector, and reduce the likelihood of motion-dectector related false alarms. If you want entry protection in a room with a bank of windows, try using a narrow beam detector aimed perpendicular to the glass.

You'll also find "dual technology" detectors that use both infrared and active microwaves to detect intruders. This is cool until you think about microwaving your kids all day (may or not be an issue, but I didn't want to think about it...). I saw one product that only had the motion active when the system was armed, but the wiring looked more complex then I was prepared to deal with.

beelzerob

10-25-2006, 03:38 PM

I wondered what PIR meant....

Ya, living in AZ, I'm thinking the walls alone might give off too much IR to be of use.

So, can anyone with a wireless motion detector tell me how long your batteries last? I'm thinking they must use up a bit more power than your simple open/close switches.

I've gotten approval from the Queen to pursue info on this, so that's a good thing! However, it's on about a 1 - 2 month hold for finances, but that gives me good time to collect information.

I'm interested in the Elk panel purely for it's flexibility. I don't know enough about it to compare it to any other panel, but I know from reading that it just seems un-matched.

What I need to do then is start to develop a list of equipment....consider it for a bit..make tweaks and changes, etc..... I've gone to some of those sites you all mentioned, and some of them have "kits", or basically combo's. That seems like a pretty good way to get started.

beelzerob

10-25-2006, 03:44 PM

Ya, our smoke detectors are interlocked. It'd be nice to connect to that somehow.

zaccari

10-25-2006, 04:39 PM

In my area, the current code requires a smoke on every floor, power via ac and battery and interconnection. My intent is to replace those smokes with one in every bedroom and each floor (essentially every primary living area). I asked about the idea of interconnection and battery+ac powering as it pertained to alarm panels. I was told that the code police here have allowed them as they exceed the intent of the code. They are interconnected as notification is given to the whole house via alarm and the panel provides power which is ac and battery backed.

robertmee

10-25-2006, 04:51 PM

Ya, our smoke detectors are interlocked. It'd be nice to connect to that somehow.

Check the manufacturer....Most 120VAC interlocked smokes have an additional relay module that can sit anywhere in the string. This relay opens on alarm of any smoke. Just tie the contacts of this relay to your alarm panel as a smoke/fire zone. That's what I did and it works great. Unfortunately, whenever the wife burns dinner the firetrucks show up outside the door. Some rule here that even if you call in a false, the dispatcher still sends the trucks. To be honest though, it's only happened twice in 5 years...She's a pretty good cook ;-)

Sparks

10-25-2006, 04:53 PM

Are there other good security/HA type of boards like the Elk that DON'T have a CQC driver written for them? What I mean is, don't hold back a recommendation just because it doesn't have a driver.....I'd certainly be willing to take on that task.
When I did the research on these, I found the ELK to be the best security/HA combo and the NX-8E the best strickly security system. This was before I decided on CQC. As I've mentioned, I wanted just a security panel so I went with the NX-8E. And as robertmee mentioned, I also use the motions to turn lights on/off in the house because both my Lutron Homeworks light system and the NX-8E are interfaced thru CQC.

klindy

10-25-2006, 06:21 PM

When I did the research on these, I found the ELK to be the best security/HA combo and the NX-8E the best strickly security system. This was before I decided on CQC. As I've mentioned, I wanted just a security panel so I went with the NX-8E. And as robertmee mentioned, I also use the motions to turn lights on/off in the house because both my Lutron Homeworks light system and the NX-8E are interfaced thru CQC.

The other obvious option is the HAI OmniProII. Unfortunately it's the highest price unit in the product line and the CQC driver is only written for the ProII.

Perhaps someone can enlighten us as to why the Omni and/or OmniPro can't work with CQC using the serial port. My assumption is it's got to deal with the speed of the serial connection vs. the amount of data to keep track of, but that's just a guess.

Dean Roddey

10-25-2006, 06:40 PM

The Omni has a lot of data that needs to be sucked out of it, and the serial Omnis are stuck at like 9600. It's pathetic really and I don't know why they even bothered with that. It's like putting out a fire with a eye dropper. The driver really can't get the data at anything like a reasonable rate to keep the latency low. I don't know why they haven't upped it to 56K at least, but maybe they assume that the serial version is now a legacy product and not worth improving.

The IP version is blindingly fast to respond, so despite the huge amount of data it doesn't have to do async notifications, i.e. the driver is purely call/response and polls for everything, so it's a very straighforward driver in terms of device interaction. It's also encrypted and secure, which would be important to some folks.

beelzerob

10-26-2006, 11:42 AM

Ok, even though I'm about 1 or 2 months away from being able to purchase this, I'd like to start compiling the list of items now so I can learn more about them.

So, I need to make some decisions....

1) Elk or no Elk
It seems that if I were interested in purely security, then there are cheaper and just as useful things out there. So, I realize the Elk is an "automation" panel, but practically, what does that mean? Is it that the Elk can also do light control? Keep in mind, I have no wiring for light control either, so that would have to be yet another system at some point in the future, and may have to be UPB or wireless controlled as well. What added capability does the Elk offer that the NX-8E doesn't? And we'll exclude the Omni for now, because of it's higher cost.

2) If Elk, then Standard or Gold?
I've seen the comparison of what the two can do....is 20 rules not typically enough? It seems like the Gold can basically handle a lot more things, and a lot more different TYPES of things (lights, "extra events"). It seems most people here suggest the Gold. I know personally that I HATE it when I get something and almost immediately find out it is too limiting.

3) Wireless or wired
The real question here is, will the Elk or whatever I end up getting work with wired and wireless devices equally well? For a worst case, I'd like to plan on all wireless devices, as that would be quickest to implement, and require the least amount of pain. Then, in the few places where I CAN run wire, I'll be saving a little money. I'll probably ultimately go with some hybrid system as suggested.

thanks for all the help and suggestions.

zaccari

10-26-2006, 12:08 PM

As I said previously, I previously had decided to purchase the Elk and after more research following others' comments elsewhere, I decided to switch to a strictly security panel. I can give you my starting list but first you should look at IVB's post (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=36511#post36511) detailing his original purchase.

I know this list isn't complete but it should give you somewhere to start.

ELK-M1GKS -- Control + Transformer + M1KP2 Keypad + Battery + Speaker + RJ31X Jack & Cord
ELK-M1DBH -- M1 Data Bus Hub
ELK-M1ZTS -- Zone Temperature Interface with Sensor x2
ELK-M1XEP -- M1 Ethernet Interface
ELK-M1XIN -- 16 zone expander
ELK-M1DBHR -- M1 Data Bus Hub
ELK-SWD1 -- Grommet Donuts for Box

I love the look of the following keypad. Apparently it is new but I don't know about it's availability.

ELK-M1KPAS

As this sucker goes in a standard electric box you need to be mindful. My understanding is that you need special boxes that divide the high and low voltage portions.

As an aside, when I was talking to a friend of mine who's done security stuff for a long time, he was shocked at the entry point of the NX-8E.

Good luck,
Russ...

IVB

10-26-2006, 12:09 PM

For #1) The only non-security thing that I do in the Elk is the use of rules, so i can tell whether there's been motion in a room within the last <x> minutes. I might make more use of rules later, not sure. Everything else is direct through CQC.

For #2) Go for the gold.

3) Get 1-2 wireless devices, see if you like how they look and how they work in your house. My house is always just a little different than others, so other folks' experience never seems to map to my difficulties.

beelzerob

10-26-2006, 12:23 PM

Wow...didn't take long for me to get lost.... :-(

1) I had preliminarily planned to put the electrical box in my laundry room. It's inside the house (inside the liveable portion, I mean...as in, not in the garage), and has a nice bare section of wall that's easy to get to. However...what type of wiring am I going to need to the Elk? Simple 120V AC? Can I just run wiring from an existing wall outlet to the Elk? At this point, forget about phone lines (we don't have one anyway) or wired sensors...I mean just to get the board up and running with some simple wireless devices.

2) I don't understand, IVB....the only thing the elk can do that a normal, security-only board can do is rules? I thought that the Elk was a home-automation/integration panel, as opposed to a security-only panel. Aren't the rules pretty important, though? I want CQC to use and augment the Elk...but I want the security panel to also work completely independantly of CQC. I don't want my security system compromised at all if the CQC server goes down.

I'm beginning to guess now that I'm asking questions that have been asked a billion times before.... Is there another thread around here somewhere of someone starting from scratch in a non-pre-build house?

zaccari

10-26-2006, 12:27 PM

For #1) The only non-security thing that I do in the Elk is the use of rules, so i can tell whether there's been motion in a room within the last <x> minutes. I might make more use of rules later, not sure. Everything else is direct through CQC.

Can CQC handle the "movement in the last x minutes" rule? It has been my intent to handle those kinds of things in CQC rather than a panel. Do I need to rethink that?

Russ...

IVB

10-26-2006, 12:31 PM

Can CQC handle the "movement in the last x minutes" rule? It has been my intent to handle those kinds of things in CQC rather than a panel. Do I need to rethink that?

Russ...

CQC might be able to do it with the upgraded timer driver, but it was just so dang easy with an Elk that I went that route.

IVB

10-26-2006, 12:35 PM

Wow...didn't take long for me to get lost.... :-(

1) I had preliminarily planned to put the electrical box in my laundry room. It's inside the house (inside the liveable portion, I mean...as in, not in the garage), and has a nice bare section of wall that's easy to get to. However...what type of wiring am I going to need to the Elk? Simple 120V AC? Can I just run wiring from an existing wall outlet to the Elk? At this point, forget about phone lines (we don't have one anyway) or wired sensors...I mean just to get the board up and running with some simple wireless devices.

Typically security panels use low-voltage wires, so you can run it yourself if need be. However, there are code specifications about how far it can be run from ac wires.

I'm actually running all the LV myself, and I can tell 2-3 areas where I'm blatantly violating code. However, I'm going to finish up the LV runs, then call in an electrician and move the HV runs to meet code.

2) I don't understand, IVB....the only thing the elk can do that a normal, security-only board can do is rules? I thought that the Elk was a home-automation/integration panel, as opposed to a security-only panel. Aren't the rules pretty important, though? I want CQC to use and augment the Elk...but I want the security panel to also work completely independantly of CQC. I don't want my security system compromised at all if the CQC server goes down.

Sorry, the only non-security thing that I use the Elk for is rules. Everything else I use directly via CQC (Aprilaire, Rain8, eventually lighting). My point was that if the caddx/etc has a decent rules engine, then you might be ok with that route.

noshali

10-26-2006, 01:21 PM

I use ELK for eveything...other than the listening to music tv control etc etc.

I setup rules in elk....if I can do it a 10 yr old can. ELK can be easily integrated in the CQC. For eg once the elk is armed away then send an off to the receiver should be easily achieved. I already have the thermostat runing through the elk and it is a breeze to do.

Next step is (haven't had time) if the window is open (zone 1 violated) then turn AC off. Simple rule will achieve that..also if zone 1 is violated and someone turns the ac on from the thermostat then announce "window is open please close the window" rule would be something like if zone 1 is violated and thermostat is on then announce "window is open" that is all it would take.

real easy stuff.

regards,

Steve

10-26-2006, 02:10 PM

Beelzerob,

First, back to the wiring in the attic question. Yes, even if it is difficult to physically get to a spot, depending on the construction, a pro can wire it using the right tools. Typically they will drill from inside at the top of the window frame up into the attic, then they shove the wire up that hole and can use long rods to grab it in the attic without having to get to the edge of the house. Still not fun, but doable. Wired is still the best when possible. On your question about wireless PIRs, they have a circuit that resets every 3 minutes I believe. This means it can only trip once every 3 minutes, this is to conserve battery, but I prefer a wired PIR that will trip each time there is motion - depends on the intent.

On the Elk vs other panels. The M1G *is* first and foremost a security panel. But it does have alot of HA capabilty. Maybe not as much as a hardcore dedicated HA panel, but it is still quite flexible. If you have any interest whatsoever in doing more than turning an alarm on or off I would highly recommend the M1. The rules simply control how things work, think of it as CQC's 'actions'. The beauty too is that it can grow with your expanding desires. You can start small with the very basics and then add lighting, HVAC, etc as you desire simply by adding modules to the bus (like M1XSP serial expanders, M1XIN zone expanders, etc). I do recommend the M1XEP ethernet as well even if it is a little pricey.

I, like many others treat the M1 as my primary controller and do everything I possibly can in it, then use CQC as the nice front end to it and also to supplement it with things the M1 can't do directly, like TTS, IR, etc. IVB's approach is opposite, putting most things direct in CQC, but that's ok, you have that flexibility to do what works best for you. Personally, I prefer a dedicated HW battery backed up controller. I hate being at the mercy of a HD crash to lose all my stuff, but even a PC can be setup fairly bulletproof if you want to go through the time and expense to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beelzerob
Wow...didn't take long for me to get lost.... :-(

1) I had preliminarily planned to put the electrical box in my laundry room. It's inside the house (inside the liveable portion, I mean...as in, not in the garage), and has a nice bare section of wall that's easy to get to. However...what type of wiring am I going to need to the Elk? Simple 120V AC? Can I just run wiring from an existing wall outlet to the Elk? At this point, forget about phone lines (we don't have one anyway) or wired sensors...I mean just to get the board up and running with some simple wireless devices.

Typically security panels use low-voltage wires, so you can run it yourself if need be. However, there are code specifications about how far it can be run from ac wires.

I'm actually running all the LV myself, and I can tell 2-3 areas where I'm blatantly violating code. However, I'm going to finish up the LV runs, then call in an electrician and move the HV runs to meet code.I think you were asking about what AC wires for the Elk panel? Like IVB said, all your LV sensor wires and PIRs, GlassBreaks, etc will run into the panel but yes, you also need 120V AC. The M1 runs off of a transformer that plugs in to an outlet and supplies 16VAC. So, you don't *need* AC right by the panel because you can mount the transformer a bit remote from the can. Some other devices also are transformer driven, like the ethernet module, although they can also be converted to run off the Elk power supply. A nice thing to do if possible is to put an outlet in the bottom of the can. There is a knockout to do that and keep everything nice and neat.

You should probably have a look around CocoonTech (http://www.cocoontech.com) as that is probably the most info packed site for Elk and HA info.

beelzerob

10-26-2006, 02:31 PM

Wow, thanks Steve! That was very informative and understandable. Heck, it even made me think I could do the wiring myself, it sounds so easy now... ;-)

That was an excellent summary, and I think really puts me in the "Elk" category. I'm definitely a fan of expandability.

So let me start a shopping list....

1) Elk M1 Gold, Sys4 (http://www.asihome.com/ASIshop/product_info.php?products_id=184) - $468 @ asihome.com
- Includes 1 Keypad, 1 battery, Voice/Siren speaker and RJ31x jack, transformer and 14X14 enclosure
2) Ethernet board - $167

I like IVB's suggestion of trying a few wireless devices first and see how I like them. So, let's say 2 wireless door/window switches for a start. Will any of them work with this? Are some much better than others?

Steve

10-26-2006, 03:00 PM

Well, be prepared, there are usually hidden traps waiting for you, but just saying a pro has the tools and experience to get it done.

To do wireless, you will need a wireless receiver for the Elk. Right now you will need to use a Caddx board like the NX408e, but Elk has another wireless option coming out soon. The micro transmitter linked above are what I use also. You can see others here (http://www.automatedoutlet.com/home.php?cat=158&page=2). With Elk, you have to use Caddx, but that is a good thing since they are supervised. Well, truthfully, you can use X10 wireless stuff with a W800 hooked into an M1, but you definitely don't want to do that for security.

Also, you may want to compare to Automated Outlet. I may be biased, but they will price match and imho have the *best* Elk support around. Jim Houston is really good. The whole price thing is a mess, everyone *should* be advertising at retail ($599) per Elk policy, but Elk does not enforce it and many places will probably start advertising different prices like asi is. Support is important - asi is a division of Worthington and they have great HAI support, but AO does much more Elk business and has better support there imo.

beelzerob

10-26-2006, 03:14 PM

Please, keep site/dealer recommendations coming! If I need cheap PC hardware, I'm well versed on where to go. But for HA/security hardware, I've no clue.

beelzerob

10-26-2006, 03:28 PM

Ok then, for now we'll hold off on pricing, since that is relatively flexible. Let me accrue the actual parts list first.

1) Elk M1 Gold, Sys4 - $468 @ asihome.com
- Includes 1 Keypad, 1 battery, Voice/Siren speaker and RJ31x jack, transformer and 14X14 enclosure
2) Ethernet board - $167
3) NX-408E Wireless addin board for Elk
4) NX-454 Micro-wireless Door/Window sensor (2)

I'm just assuming that since that wireless sensor was listed under "Elk compatible", and starts with "NX", that the sensor is going to work with the 408E? Nothing on the page indicated that.

Also, for the 408E, being just an addin card, is everything included with that board to add it to the Elk? Or is there yet some other piece of hardware you have to buy to actually add it in?

IVB

10-26-2006, 03:33 PM

I use Brian at tech-home for when I want price-matching, and toymaster when I'm willing to pay more for him to review my designs and tell me how to do stuff. I.E., he spec'd out where my smoke detectors vs CO vs ..., should go.

But AO is also awesome. Martin of AO is usually on cocoontech chat most nights.

You've got tons of great options for DIY-friendly folk.

IVB

10-26-2006, 03:35 PM

1) Elk M1 Gold, Sys4 - $468 @ asihome.com
- Includes 1 Keypad, 1 battery, Voice/Siren speaker and RJ31x jack, transformer and 14X14 enclosure

If you're only going to have a single can with everything run to it, that 14" can is far too small. Get either the 28" one, or a Leviton/etc 44" mondo one if you've got the space.

I think there's a package without the enclosure.

Sparks

10-26-2006, 05:46 PM

My point of view was to get the best in each area and then find an automation program that would integrate each one together. I installed a Lutron Homeworks whole house lighting system for lights thru my house, I went with a Nuvo Concerto system for whole house audio, and the NX-8E panel for security. Each of these systems alone were the best for each area, at least IMHO. I have speakers in every room and use the Concerto for background music in any room in the house. And then I decided on CQC to integrate all systems together. If CQC goes down, all other systems still work independantly of each other. It's just that my mud room light doesn't go on automatically when the door opens up....etc. I'll have to hit a Lutron keypad to turn the light on. If I were going to control X-10 devices or something like that, I probably would have gone with the ELK, but with the other devices I had, it would have provided no benefit to me.

beelzerob

10-30-2006, 07:25 AM

Ok, things seem to be moving along a little faster now. I talked to my neighbor who does a lot of building, and he has an electrician friend that he thinks he can get to give me a good deal on running the security wiring. My neighbor is interested in home automation, so I think we're going to barter in some information.

Can someone tell me, though, just a BALLPARK (and I realize this varies with location, difficulty, ect) of how much it would normally cost to have an electrician come out and wire pretty much a whole house for security? Ceilings are vaulted in most locations, though there is some crawling room at the apex of the trusses.

He asked me how much I thought it'd cost, and I said I'd be happy if we only had to pay $1000 (because I figured $1000 for equipment, and then another $1000 to have all the wiring done, $2000 seemed somewhat manageable). He gave me a grin that said that I'd be pretty happy with how much his friend would do it for. However, did I grossly overestimate? Would $500 be more typical? I have no idea.

Anyone have some very ballpark numbers? The house is 2200 sq ft, 4 bedroom, for reference.

IVB

10-30-2006, 10:09 AM

My complete guess would be an avg $100 per run. It takes me 1-2 hrs per unique run, if I have a 2nd wire colocated it takes less time. The # of runs is up to you and how many sensors you want to put where.

I bet you could use CAT5/6 to do multiple runs in a single wire, but that won't work for all distances or sensor types.

zaccari

10-30-2006, 10:15 AM

My guess would be the SF won't really play into the equation near as much as the number of doors, windows and PIRs you want. The kicker will be the difficulties in wiring. Finally, you'll probably save yourself money if you tell him you'll get his "work" fixed when he's done. That's assuming you have someone that can drywall affordably. A word of warning, before you make an offer like cleaning up after him, make sure you're comfy that he won't rip the house inside-out.

Russ...

beelzerob

10-30-2006, 10:33 AM

Well heck, if opening up drywall was a viable option, then I could do it. :-D

We're fortunate that the texture we have on the interior walls is very forgiving of patches, so holes in drywall is doable if needed.

And ya, I'd imagine work like this costs probably less in Tucson than it would in San Fran. Heh.

At this point, I'm going for it all:

1 garage door
2 exterior regular doors
2 exterior sliding doors
2 exterior yard gates
1 interior door (garage to kitch)
10 exterior windows
4 interior motion sensors

That's a good start. ;-)

Steve

10-30-2006, 02:07 PM

That comes to about $45 per run which depending on how good a friend it is, and how hard it is to get to those spots is probably a fair price.

beelzerob

11-06-2006, 08:41 AM

Well, I definitely thank everyone for the info they posted in this thread. It really did help a lot, and it will be pretty useful to me in the future. But I came up with a better plan to boost my house security that won't involve the Elk just yet.

We're moving. :cool

It had always been the long-term plan to move away from the desert and into a climate that is less hostile to life. And the recent awareness of how bad the crime is getting here in Tucson was enough for us to decide to make the move now. When we started talking about arming my wife....it was time to take a step back and realize it's not what we wanted.

Sooo....we have no idea where we're going yet (someplace with seasons and less issues with crime), but when we get there, I look forward to figuring out how to wire THAT place for security. Even though we'll be moving somewhere with less of a crime problem, I think security will always be on my mind now, and I"m sure I'll implement something no matter where we move.

But I'm already giddy at the idea of moving into a house with a BASEMENT! Oooo, the things you can do with a basement.....it's been so long.

noshali

11-06-2006, 08:54 AM

My house is finished...and god forbid I do anything to the drywall. I bought a 48 zone wireless expander and already had wireless door and window sensors from my ADT install....only can use GE stuff. It has been 3 years (since the sensors) and just changed the batteries.

Considering that you would be paying around $45 per run...you could do that with a GE sensor for $35. I love the sensors and the range is awesome...never have had an issue. I have my ELK in the basement next to the furnace and water heater with all metal pipes and it still work great.

You don't have to have the wireless zone expander card where the ELk is just run a wire to where you want it and can place the card in a $10 enclosure.

Instant gratification....stick/screw in the wireless contact. program elk and you are done.

You could always move the one of the suburbs of chicago...weather is the other extreme but we do have seasons...but the weather can change on you...for eg we had temp in the 30s last week and this week it is going to hit 60.

regards,

beelzerob

11-06-2006, 09:02 AM

Heh...well, Chicago is in contention as anywhere else. We want seasons, and that also means SNOW. I lived in Alaska for 10 years, and the only thing I miss from that is snow. Having lived in AZ for 14 years now, I've missed it long enough.

I'll certainly reference this thread, maybe even resurrect it, once we find a new home, but that could seriously be months of even years. We'll actually be moving very soon....but we might languish in an apartment for a while first.

I just wanted to let you guys know that I didn't just lose interest in security and thus forsake all your good advice here...it's just that we won't be making these purchases in the near future now.

Gadget

11-07-2006, 07:35 AM

I thought I would hijack this thread for a second while all the security experts are here! I am also looking for a security only panel with the following criteria
1) alarm only, don't need extra automation
2) CQC compatible (of course)
3) hardwired sensors
4) no requirement for X-10 etc
5) must have dial out and voice capabilities, I don't want to pay for alarm monitoring, I want the panel to dial out different people and have them cancel the alarm remotely
Q: Does the NX8E panel have the voice capability I need? It is not apparent from what I have read whether this is a add on or not
Thanks.

jscheller

11-07-2006, 07:52 AM

I know there are add-on modules that do some of what you're after, but I'm not sure of the exact scenario that would dial someone and on that phone call let you arm/disarm the alarm.

There's a two-way communication module that lets the monitoring station listen in to what's going on. I don't know if this allows the monitoring station to clear the alarm at the panel. If you're programming the system to dial a live person, you'd want to see what could be accomplished with them using a touch-tone phone.

There's a separate add-on module that lets you control the alarm using a voice menu interface and a touch tone keypad.

Maybe one or both of these together would accomplish what you're after... However, I think the Elk has few more voice-oriented features that may make some of this sort of thing a bit less complex...

Sparks

11-07-2006, 08:53 AM

5) must have dial out and voice capabilities, I don't want to pay for alarm monitoring, I want the panel to dial out different people and have them cancel the alarm remotely
Thanks. I only pay $9.95 a month for monitoring....doesn't seem like a lot for the trouble you may have, to get done what you want to. Also, the alarm company can tell which zone the issue is in and what type of alarm it is. I don't think you will get that over a voiceline. The NX-8E has 3 numbers to dial out to.

beelzerob

11-07-2006, 08:59 AM

I thought I would hijack this thread for a second while all the security experts are

Not a hijack at all! I'm glad someone will make use of this thread, since I've lost interest in this until I have a new house to apply it to. No point in learning all this stuff, and then have to relearn it again a year later since it's all changed! :cool

Steve

11-07-2006, 09:07 AM

We want seasons, and that also means SNOW.That's not necessarily true. Here in Florida we don't have snow, but still have seasons, albeit only 2 - Hurricane season and non Hurricane season. :tounge

beelzerob

11-07-2006, 09:20 AM

Heh...two seasons would still be a 100% increase from where we live now.

Ya, the "snow" addendum was just for clarity.....many places I can think of have all 4 seasons, but it just isn't winter for me without snow on the ground.

Be sure and remind me I said that several years from now when I've been having to endure shoveling the drive..... :roll:

Gadget

11-07-2006, 12:31 PM

I only pay $9.95 a month for monitoring....doesn't seem like a lot for the trouble you may have, to get done what you want to. Also, the alarm company can tell which zone the issue is in and what type of alarm it is. I don't think you will get that over a voiceline. The NX-8E has 3 numbers to dial out to.

You're right, $9.95 is not bad but I always have my cell phone and I have family a few doors down so it makes sense for me that I just have the alarm panel dial me first.
I guess my other question is whether anybody is using CQC to check their house status across the web. With a web enabled cell phone I could check the house status after the panel phones me, right? The $10/mth could go towards my cell phone bill :shock:
One more thing: it appears difficult to find any detailed information on these panels as the documents are all locked. Is there a DIY friendly dealer that can answer questions and supply me with the proper manuals?

IVB

11-07-2006, 12:41 PM

Is there a DIY friendly dealer that can answer questions and supply me with the proper manuals?

Check out the Elkproducts.com website - they have all their manuals in PDF form there.

is whether anybody is using CQC to check their house status across the web.
I was using 1.6 heavily with my Cingular 8125 cellphone over the cellphone network. However, not using the Web [squintz is doing that though], rather through the CQC DotNetViewer. It's a much more efficient and secure mechanism to do the same thing. For example, if you have the same image 10x on a page, you don't have to download each of them - the CQC viewer will download it once. There's also strong userid/pw security.

Here's the thread with the screenshots (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2005).

I'll pick this up again in 2.0 as soon as there's a beta version of the DotNetViewer.

BTW, for $10/month, get the monitoring. For example, you might be at home and have the system armed in "Nighttime, i'm home" mode. Unless you feel like calling the cops on your cellphone to say "please come. Someone has broken into my house and shot me." Or, in the event of a fire while you're not there, without monitoring you'd basically come home to a burnt down house. With monitoring, as soon as a smoke or heat alarm goes off, the monitoring service could call the fire dept on your behalf at the FIRST signal, not when your neighbors noticed.

Sparks

11-07-2006, 12:44 PM

You're right, $9.95 is not bad but I always have my cell phone and I have family a few doors down so it makes sense for me that I just have the alarm panel dial me first.
I guess my other question is whether anybody is using CQC to check their house status across the web. With a web enabled cell phone I could check the house status after the panel phones me, right? The $10/mth could go towards my cell phone bill :shock:
One more thing: it appears difficult to find any detailed information on these panels as the documents are all locked. Is there a DIY friendly dealer that can answer questions and supply me with the proper manuals?
I also always have my cell with me...but there are places I don't get service or I may be somewhere where I don't hear it (loud concerts). I have my neighbors on my call list to the alarm company in the event they can't get in touch with me so they can check on things. Also, I'm still not sure with your method how you/they would know whether to call the fire or police on an alarm and lost minutes can make the difference in a house burning down or not. And I'd hate to put that burden on my friends/family if it ever came to that. Anyway, I have all the docs and can email them to you. Send me a PM with your email address.

Ditto on IVB's comments..I was writing the above post when he posted his answer.

robertmee

11-07-2006, 02:58 PM